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Page 1, Page 2 Content Let's keep the goalposts where they are. ;) If the criteria is "which is more fun" - tokens are more fun than repeatedly completing content and getting loot you don't want. | |} ---- Why don't you want it? I just illustrated how it's all useful in some way. | |} ---- Because it's not. To use your example of survivability - maybe I already have gear that I depend on for survivability. If what I need for my build is a weapon that does higher DPS, if I don't get that my time's essentially wasted. What should be a reward is instead a dissatisfier. Sure, when you're new you can make use of just about anything you can get that's better than what you have - but the more you dial in your gear the more you need specific pieces to the puzzle. | |} ---- Why can't we be "ok with what we got?" I mean, make the most out of your character by using the items you have access to - that, to me, is much more interesting. It also makes getting that perfect piece of gear feel more like hitting the jackpot, which is *very* satisfying. I think Carbine had it largely right, and players are wanting the same boring predictable loot schedule they've always had. With just some tweaks, this would be the most incredible MMO loot system… but the gutting of it is going to lose WildStar its identity. | |} ---- I'd rather not focus on the philosophical argument of Wildstar's "identity". We can't always be "ok with what we got" because sometimes that's not enough. If I need a higher DPS then that's what I need. You're correct that in the face of the adversity of the RNG it does feel like the jackpot when you actually get the gear you want, but it's not enough to outweigh the dissatisfaction of having to grind the same piece of content *again* just to get what you need. (If however, you'd rather debate the philosophical argument around the design, I understand that - it's just not one I'm interested in.) | |} ---- That statement right there demonstrates why you're in left field in comparison to...well...the entire genre of game. Firstly, "ok with what we got?" is just idiotic. This is not an FPS game. It's an mmorpg. Character power progression is what drives this style of game. Whether it's levels during early/mid or item progression during end game, people play to make their characters better. If you're "ok with what you got" great, but people don't play to be "ok with what they got" they play to experience their characters getting better. If you don't understand that there is no hope for you in this discussion. Second, hitting the jackpot is not very satisfying. For you it might be "very" satisfying. But hitting the jackpot means that the other end of the spectrum happens too. "Aw shucks loser, you just went 57 weeks with no upgrades cause you're not lucky! Try again next week sucker!" No thanks. Your recommendations are prettymuch in line with what they're not going to do as it's representative of a philosophy that's driving players away from the game. | |} ---- I don't think I have the energy anymore… sigh. First, knock off the hyperbole. Look at what you just wrote and tell me that isn't a prescription for the same crap we've been playing for 10 years. Why do we as players want that… again? Carbine designed the WildStar itemization system to feel more spontaneous and have some constant item-over-item progression. They wanted us to chase the best possible "roll" we could for our gear… but at the same time, made it so they were in no way required and in fact stated that players would quite likely never get all BiS gear because of it. It was designed that way. They made some mistakes however in the layers on RNG and the effort required to get a single reward, even a non-optimal one… It was Diablo loot without Diablo-esque access to the loot. So in that sense, that's where they should be looking to correct it. Not make it more predictable - just more available. Also, skill in WildStar is a much greater operator than a few points of a stat here and there. This is something else players need to embrace… I'll give you 50 points of the stat of your choice all day because I know my ability can overcome it. It would be great if players and the game studios that feed them started embracing the idea that you build the best character you can - but you should never expect to have the best character possible. | |} ---- Edit: It's a systemic issue that requires so much more than just thinning the loot tables and dropping one of everything. If you're actually interested in resolving the problems and you just don't like tokens, if that's what it boils down to then you need to suggest some realistic solutions that also addresses all of the problems. Tokens inherently fix a lot of loot table bloat. What could have been 12 different items becomes 3. On top of thinning out the loot table which allows more room for other non-token gear to drop they serve to make gearing up an off set easy and it doesn't come at the cost of main spec gear when it's still needed. That's not counting their changes to class specific gear. Hybrid gear removal. Set rune slots on item tiers. Or a myriad of other issues that all tie together into one giant itemization mess that they're working to fix. It's not quite so simple as "no tokens boo!" Edited August 28, 2014 by Niil | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I know this was posted ages back but it doesn't do this. The chest token may not drop for you or your group for 10 runs. It's not like every player gets a token for a kill. As you would now getting 3 drops from a boss...3 tokens will drop. Then you go and trade it for an item. There's absolutely no guarantee which tokens will drop and on top of that I'm sure there will also be alternative items like one off chestpieces that drop and can't be tokened. I think you're going way OTT in comparing it to WoW just because they use a token too. It wont be predictable, you may still get a light glove token when all your light classes are fully geared in both support and assault but your Heavy geared people are in whites!!! It is still random but uses a pool of 18 rather than 72 to pick from! | |} ---- Why can't they show the stats for the item they convert to? Someone will make an app for that don't worry! :) | |} ---- You can't anyway. You wont have the runes for it so it is highly doubtful it'll be an instant upgrade. When you are at raid level you wont get an item un-runed that will improve you over you fully runed BiS gear. | |} ---- ---- You say that, but when the request for pics of you wearing nothing but an apron begin, you might re-think that offer. I know i did. *takes apron off* | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I don't know what's funnier: the fact that you've repeatedly attacked people for posting threads that raised awareness, promoted discussion, etc. because you were too busy blindly defending everything wrong with the game (even BUGS...) OR the fact that, when YOU do it, it's harmless and "from a place of love for the game". :P If you were REALLY arguing for something to benefit the game, you'd be in favor of tokens because tokens keep people playing the game longer, and in the end, that's what'll keep WS alive. Do you actually believe that people ENJOY running the same content 10, 20, 50 times and never getting the gear they want? I've seen that crap happen in WoW. It's the kind of thing that makes people say "Why bother?" and unsub, and no sane person would blame them. No, boredom ≠ challenge. Running the same content over and over again in the hopes that an RNG happens to go in your favor is not enjoyable. It never has been and it never WILL be. This is the kind of thing where, 10 years from now, we're all going to look back and LAUGH about how anyone ever put up with this kind of crap to start with. Also, I take particular issue with this... At least you ADMITTED it was "perhaps" heavy handed, but the truth is that it goes beyond that into being completely unnecessary. I can't find it now, but there was an "Extra Credits" a while back that discussed "choices vs. problems". Basically, every time something has a "solution", it's not a choice but a problem, and they included WoW's gearing system in that because BiS items are a thing. The problem with WS's system (which I believe they're looking into fixing) is that, yes, there IS a BiS rune config, and with no way to alter that rune config (yet), you're looking at a situation where gear is likely to drop that no one will want to spend DKP on because they'd rather hold out and bid on the item with the correct rune slots. Again, this serves no purpose except to add tedium to the game. I applaud Carbine for moving away from any loot system where players can be eternally screwed over by RNG (and the old system definitely classified). RNG is not a substitute for challenge. Never has been. Never will be. | |} ---- That's not what being added, thank you try again. | |} ---- Well, too be fair, it serves several purposes. 1) make gear dynamic instead of static pieces 2) improve diversity in gearing 3) reward hardcore play (yes, hardcore only means being more active in a game) I don't necessarily disagree with your point. But there were some very good reasons to go with the system they made. I honestly appreciated most of them (not all). I think the true main issue was the communities obsession with BiS.... random gear should have pushed that out of the community; but instead it only became stronger. I actually have to agree pretty strongly with Lethality here. The gear system (while it could certainly benefit from higher over-all drop rates to compensate) was actually a good move for the type of game Carbine wanted to make... but the Community seems to be incapable of realizing you don't need anywhere near the so-called 'BiS' to be very competitive in raids and content. | |} ---- This is the heart of the matter, so let's discuss it. Do tokens *really* keep people playing the game somehow? And if so, why wouldn't they have used the concept from the start? There's certainly enough examples in the MMO world out there, many of which the Carbine guys and gals worked on. The reason is because they wanted a different kind of itemization system, and this doesn't make sense in that world. Think if Diablo worked like that? This loot system has more in common with that action-RPG genre than a traditional MMORPG and that's what I love about it. I think a better fix instead of tokenizing is to simply drop more loot more often so that players are constantly getting a chance to get the best piece they want, not *maybe* 1 chance per hour of effort. There's no double the dungeons are fun, so who *woduln't* want to run them over and over if they had a reasonable chance of getting what they wanted? People did in in WoW for years. To this day, I still don't have my pants from the Baron. But when you DO hit the jackpot on loot, man is it satisfying. Much much more so than hoofing it over to a vendor and selecting purchase. Stupid and boring Again, that is a player problem more than a game problem. There will always be a "best" but players are unwilling to accept that the content design might mean they can't always have it. But dammit, with enough fist pounding and feet stomping, they can get their WoW here in WildStar too. To me it's much more interesting playing with the cards you're dealt... make a reasonable effort to get a better item, but rune it the best you can and move on. Nexus would be a much better place if players would lose this weird mental block. | |} ---- That's what's really bothering me about this thread. It's not a damn currency token!! It's a single-use item that you trade to the vendor for a selection of gear. Saying we don't like extra currencies is about as relevant as saying we don't like our characters randomly exploding. Neither of those things is happening. | |} ---- ^^ This x100000 | |} ---- He wouldn't get any traction otherwise if people realized they aren't adding an additional way of getting loot simply changing the class set drops from items to item tokens. What has been seen since TBC even in WoW because nobody likes to salvage most of their raid loot. It's easier to get more traction by spreading misinformation and creating a more controversial issue that doesn't exist, what he probably doesn't realize any feedback generated here will be dismissed and at worse seen as an error of caused by miscommunication. Or he could be attention whoring that's also a possibility. | |} ---- ---- Tokens of any sort are boring gameplay. That is what is in my original post. There's nothing fun about getting a token, which you cannot equip or measure stats against current gear, and then traps over to a vendor to exchange it. That is a *terrible* and boring design from where I stand. And one thing leads to another. | |} ---- you are speaking of a currency in your OP what is incorrect and misleading and are now using a slippery slope fallacy to defend it. By using that type of argumentation you pretty much admit you know your OP is misleading. Here is something else to cry about since that's your argumentation, all class set items are going to be of higher potency and equipped with omni-slots. Also any decent "raider" will already know if a tier piece will be better or not because you know that's how we have been doing it for years in WoW. There's also no connection to an additional currency being added and class items being turned into items you can trade in for that set piece. As we already have a currency fallback system if your RNG is bad, it's called elder gems. | |} ---- ---- You don't understand it do you. You can't say F it and go over there and get it. The token drops from one boss, just like the same pair of gloves drops from one boss. They aren't saying right here's all the class loot and every single piece can be obtained from every single boss in a massive loot table. Instead of having 72 items on a boss loot table there will now be 18 and YOU can pick what option you choose out of the 4 light/heavy/medium pieces using the token for that piece. | |} ---- Lethality was pretty clear. He prefers actual drops to token drops... He seems to understand just fine that the tokens are boss / dungeon specific and are tied to a single piece to allow shared gear type classes to not end up with a useless piece if say a SS support stat glove drops in a group with a DPS SS and 2 support Espers. you can accomplish that goal in other ways with out tokens however. (e.g. instead the gear that can drop is limited to the class/builds that are present.) | |} ---- Yes...already addressed in the same Nexus Report...called Smart Loot. They can't do it yet and it will be "complicated" to implement. That's not directed at Lethality anyway, the quote is from a different person. It's fair enough if he likes the randomness but what I'd like answered is my point made earlier to him that there is absolutely zero difference in having a placeholder (token) for an item rather than getting the actual item there and then because: a ) you wont have the runes etc there to put in it so it wont be an upgrade and you'll degrade your performance b ) you get random rune slots so it's impossible to know what you're getting until you get it The only thing is it's nice to go oh wow, I've got a new piece of loot BUT this wont affect open world drops and you will still get those as these ONLY apply to class set items. | |} ---- They will simply be raid drops and they will be shared by the same armor type. Thus 3 tokens anyone who raided in WoW knows how this works and know how badly RNGesus still was with that system if unlucky. (protector tokens never dropped when in the raid...) Also the suggestion you make are for systems that take a lot of time to be added in and even then it still wouldn't work, the pieces getting sharded now isn't caused by lack of class diversity in raid setup each class and spec is generally represented to a point, raid loot gets sharded because the same class items drop that are already used by the players who can use them. While with the change to the Tier token, we could at least hand it to one of the 3 others specs that can use it. | |} ---- it's not complicated; they have half a dozen of the Warhammer devs on staff and WAR did it outright. I get why they are doing tokens; I'm just pointing out this thread has become pointless. Lethality was stating his opinion not arguing about what the tokens are. He doesn't like them - fin | |} ---- Have you watched the Nexus Report? They said all of this, they clearly stated this is for class items only. A smart loot function is difficult/time consuming for them to introduce. Besides a smart loot system is completely and utterly the opposite to RNG - Lethality would have kittens at that :lol: , it's gifting you gear because it wont give you gear people already have! It's fine to not like tokens...but any arguments against it like it makes for less content etc are utter BS...it totally depends on implementation and all it takes away is the "WOW I gots new itamzzz" moment if implemented correctly. | |} ---- ---- Yes, and it need't scan you for what gear you already have; just limit stat rolls on dropped gear to the specs in your group. I'm not advocating they do it; when you see exempli gratia before a statement, that means its an example. Edited August 28, 2014 by BusterCasey Content | |} ---- So, its way more fun, exciting and awesome to have "chestpiece of the clown" drop rather than a "token" that you can trade in for the "chestpiece of the clown"? Normal human beings and serious raiders in general would choose the token system without a second guess. You are entitled to your opinion, just dont act like its the standard when its actually exotic. There is a reason the token system was introduced in WoW. Raiders in general were pretty frustrated by the cheap timesink that was loot before tokens, it took people months over months to get geared and a shitload of disenchanted gears. Clearing BWL for 4-6 months every week and have raiders still missing key equipments were unnaceptable. This loot system became related with sloopy design, it usually meant that devs wanted to increase the lifespam of content with cheapness, making you run content more than you would like for that slim chance at important equipment. The token system must be one of the best quality of life improvements in mmo history. WoW is out there for 10 years, their knowledge about mmos must be respected, and some aspects and features of WoW should be copied by every mmo out there, becasue its just the right thing and most of tiems result of years an years of trial and error. i personally love the token system, i see it as a huge quality of life improvement and a commitment of the devs with true lifespam of content. And i dont get this whole "its way more exciting to get the equipament than a token to trade for that equipment", i cant really see how more exciting it really is, and overall sounds silly. | |} ---- ---- Thanks to rune sets, you already can't equip the item right then. And even then, if they made the token an item that gives quest which is completed over communicator, similar to the Elonya daily drop, you still could get your item without leaving the raid. I could understand some push back if we were getting SWTOR style loot where each boss gives a specific token, because that gets predictable and boring. But we still have the Wildstar loot tables, albeit less bloated, because the only thing being tokenized are the class sets (i.e. the gear that has a class restriction). There are still a lot of off set pieces that will be on the loot table. Most of us in favor of the token system have been talking about raid loot, where you can only kill a boss once per week so this idea of just running it again really doesn't apply. | |} ---- ---- I think itemization is one of the worst aspects of the game, personally. It's great when you get that perfect piece you've always been dreaming of, but 99% of the time you don't and that's not fun. No one is saying you should get an upgrade every raid night, but the thing about tokens is that they are used as a supplementary way to get pieces that would be upgrades. If the RNJesus is frowning upon you for weeks at a time at the same time you are collecting tokens and you can see, "Well, I've been very unlucky lately with drops, but at least in 2 weeks I will be able to afford that supermegaawesome gun". supermegaawesome gun may not be as good as ULTRADOPEPHOTOPLASMIC RIFLE OF DOOM that drops from Avatus, but it's better than your currently sortapewpewbutnot really pea shooter of non-intimidation. | |} ---- Honestly getting a regular drop is enough of a chore when you have to juggle rune slots and set-bonuses, I really would rather not also have to gather X amount of mats, or bug the guild leader/banker for mats and craft, or have someone else craft the armor piece. The game has plenty of chores already. There will always be wasted loot, unless you utilize a system where precursors can be used by anyone for anything (which would be boring). My issue with the 2 salvages for an item suggestion is that it puts more pressure for guilds to salvage things to ensure high priority members (e.g. tanks) get geared quicker, and limits off-spec gearing opportunities. You will have this with tokens as well, but to a lesser extent, because those tanks won't be able to get their hands on light armor. Unique and/or complex is not always better. Edited August 28, 2014 by Bnol | |} ---- What if it were a MAGIC token? What if, for as long as you held it, you had a pale blue aura all around you, angel wings, and your very own traveling theme music? :) | |} ---- ---- ----